Right handed first baseman holding runner on

Rule 4.03 says...

When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be on fair territory.

(a) The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.

PENALTY: Balk.

(b) The pitcher, while in the act of delivering the ball to the batter, shall take his legal position;

(c) Except the pitcher and the catcher, any fielder may station himself anywhere in fair territory.

Note that the penalty of a balk is listed only on 4.03a. There is no penalty prescribed for a player being in foul territory. Make sure everyone's in fair territory before you put the ball in play. Otherwise, the fielders can stand where ever they want. If the outfielders want to go have a picnic next the the right field fence, let them. They're gaining no advantage from it.

Notice that the way the rule is worded the penalty applies only to the one thing where the defense might get an advantage: "when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand."

Mitch,  Look at page 6, Rule 1, article 4. It states that at the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher...... A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.
Penalty: Illegal pitch (2-18-1) A runner on base, it is ruled a balk.
I read this as meaning that F3 can have one foot in foul territory when the ball is put in play also, not just at the time of the pitch, because it states "A fielder is in fair ground....."
By the way, the book I am looking at is the NFHS rules book.
Rule 4.03, as Adam has mentioned is from the little league rules book and he is correct in that it states in "fair territory" and is not specific in its definition, thus, I would enforce both feet being in fair territory in a little league game.
I hope this helps.

Reference NFHS Case Book Page 5, 1.1.4 Situation.  COMMENT. 

Mike

The Little League Rule Interpretation Manual states that both feet must be in fair territory. See this quote from the notes on rule 4.03 c

"When holding a runner on first base, especially in Juniors, Seniors and Big League Baseball, the first baseman will sometimes have his/her left foot entirely in foul territory. Do not allow this to occur. Both feet must be in fair territory. Penalty for having at least one foot on the ground entirely in foul territory is not a balk. Simply warn the player to move into fair territory and that further occurrence can result in his/her ejection from the game."

If you use the interpretation of what determines in the batters box this means that some part of each foot must be touching the line. This would allow some part of the foot to still be in foul area. If you go by the batters box interpretation for before the pitch. Each foot must be completely inside the box with does include the lines.

But here is the real deal to think about. What is the penalty? Since there is no penalty (other than ejection for repeatedly not complying with a rule) is this an issue you want to make your stand on? We are judged by how reasonably we apply the rules. The officials job is to maintain fairness. If you enforce this and eject players that do not comply are you also enforcing all the other rules? For example are you enforcing the rule that the coaches box must be clearly marked? Or the rule that the coach many not leave the coaches box? For which again, there is no penalty except to eject him for repeated failure to comply with the rules.

This is an example of one of the rules that has no penalty, some of the rules are guidelines for conduct that the players and coaches comply with because they should, not because there is a penalty.

Do not spend too much time with rules that have no penalty. Keep the game fair. What advantage does this rule protect against? The real point of this rules is from the days when any batted ball that touched fair was a fair ball no matter where it went. There were batters that specialized in this. Before this rule was put into place teams would actually position players behind the catcher to help field the ball when these batters were up. So all fielders generally in fair territory gave these batters a chance to get on base. Today the rule is outdated and means absolutely nothing. It would be a disadvantage for players to position in foul territory now. (well maybe not for minor little league with runners on, lots of passed balls)

So tell the coaches I am watching the pitches not the first baseman. There is no penalty and if you want me to enforce all the rules lets start with one the head coach (if this is the base coach complaining) is the only one who can speak to me, and Two the coaches must not leave the coaches box. So here is your warning not to leave the box, remember the only penalty the rules provide for that is an ejection for repeatably not complying with the rules. Don't make me have to watch you coach.

What is the penalty if the pitcher throws over to first base and the runner is picked off with the first basemen's feet in foul territory? (both feet)  From the stretch or stepping off the rubber.  He's out right?  If the pitcher pitches, it is a balk right?  I hope I'm not over thinking this thing.  Never remember anyone talking about it before or running across it myself.   I might never.  In the game I was in the other nite the first basemen was legal with one foot in fair territory.  I started to think about the other possiblities.  I didn't want it to keep me up all nite.

Mitch

Mitch

There is no penalty for the pitcher pitching while the first baseman is in foul territory. What ever happens happens. If the pitcher picks and the gets the runner, he is out. Pro rules and interpretations ignore this rule. Read my earlier post carefully I explained the origins of the rule. If players are not in fair territory you simply tell them to get into fair territory and continue on with the game.

The rules do provide an ejection for refusal to comply with a rule. So if a player continuously has to be told to get into fair territory he could be ejected. If you are going to do this you should also be enforcing all the other rules that are regularly ignored. Like coaches coming out of the dugout, coaches staying in the coaches box. I a coach is pissing at me over this rule. My response would be to hold him to all the rules until he gives up. If its the home team I would ask him to comply with the rule that requires the coaches box to be properly marked.

The coaches boxes shall be 4 feet by 8 feet 60 foot diamond and 10 feet by 20 feet on the 90 foot diamond and shall not be closer than 6 feet- 60 foot field and 10 feet 90f foot field from the foul lines. 1.04 in the rule book This is the Little league standard, Pro Rules shows the coaches box 15 feet from the foul line.

No one enforces this rule, and no one worries about the first basemans feet. The penalties are the same. Ejection for refusal to comply

Mitch specifically mentioned pro rules - High school rules are different and do impose a penalty of a balk on any fielder not being in fair territory.

The defense is getting no advantage from being in foul territory. Don't spend your time looking for it. As Dan points out, you've got more important things to be watching for - like the pitch.

I once had a coach start chirping from the dugout that several batters had been over the batter's box line throughout the game. After one pitch, he called time, walked over to me and complained that I needed to be watching the batter's position. I asked him "Do you want me to look at the batter's feet or the pitch? Because I can't see both." To my surprise, he told me he wanted me to watch the batter's feet. So on the next pitch, I'm staring at the batter's feet, which were no where near being out of the box. I hear the ball slap the glove and call it a ball. The manager baarks out, "Where'd that miss?"

"I don't know coach, I was looking at his feet!"

Dan, I disagree, If we are talking about NFHS rules, Rule 1-1-4 clearly states "at the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catchers box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground."
PENALTY: Illegal pitch. (2-18-1)
Again, we must differentiate between High School Rules and Little League Rules.
I get what you are saying, but this has happened to me more than once this year alone, in both leagues. I have enforced the "one foot in" concept in HS games by explaining to the manager the rule, no worries after that. And I have warned the player and Manager to have the player stand with both feet in fair territory in Little league or face ejection for not complying with an umpires directive, again, no worries after that. I don't want to get into a pissing contest with a manager about coach's boxes and letter of the law enforcement of every "rule" because we both would lose and desecrate the game. I prefer to just stick with the given situation and the facts pertaining to it. Of course if he wont let up, then it's time to send him packing.
Mitche's question is really valid, for some reason coaches are looking at the position of the player holding a runner on in both 1st and 3rd situations. This is what has prompted me to look into this very thing so much. I have made it part of my "on the rubber" surveillance of the field prior to the "pitch".
In a little league game, as I am watching the pitcher I also glance at the runner and F3 or F5, looking for a pick off or whatever, and it is real easy to see the position of F3/F5, if he's standing with a clear foot out, I call time, and correct the situation right away, once.
I've never, and really doubt that I would ever, see a fielder holding a runner on with both feet in foul territory in a High School game. Should that occur, I would employ the same tactic as above, and then if it occurred again I would call a balk, as this is the penalty, (unless I'm reading the book wrong) It probably wont happen again after that.
Let's remember there is a difference between High School rules and Little League rules with regard to this situation and that we have a clear response to the coach when asked. I would include this in a pre-game discussion.
Mike
  

Mitch,
Was this a High school game or a little league game? If a coach mentions "pro rules" and its high school, correct him. I believe that we are to be using the "NFHS rule book" for High School and the "Baseball Official Regulations and Playing Rules" "for all divisions of Little League Baseball " rule book.

Mike, 

It was 11-12 Pony.  Coach said we were playing pro rules.  (Okay)  It was the coach for the LOSSING team.  Thanks for what Adam shared.  In the same inning they wanted balk call again on the pitcher and he rushed  down the third base line from the his box and when he approached me I told him that this was not the protocol for approaching me to discuss anything and told him what the protocol is.  He stated that the pitched balked again during his motion, I just about had it with these guys so I looked him in the eye and told him I did not see it.  Pissed him off.  game finished with out anymore incidents.  I had a good case for interference when the coaches were blurting out "THAT'S A BALK"  while pitcher was in his motion,  Things worked out,  I just started thinking of the other possiblities after the game. The thought crossed my mind "I wonder what The Master would have done?"  So I Emailed one of my instructiors.  A foot note:  I was one man for this game.

Sorry Mitch, I was just trying to offer my input as this has happened to me a few times but only with HS and LL. I understand your respect for "The Master's" response. When you had said that the coach told you what rules you were playing under (pro) and did not specify the league in your letter to this forum, I thought I would just offer my take on it.Mike

Mike

I am not sure what about my post you are disagreeing with. You do not seem to have a problem not enforcing the coaches box rule. Why is that? Its a rule. I think you actually are agreeing with me that enforcing rules that do not carry penalties may not be worth the effort and cause you other problems in the game. Personally I am not going to worry about the first-baseman's feet. Now if he is not in fair territory at all I would wait for him to get into position. Think about this for a second. Is the point of the rule to insure the umpire allows all player to get back to their play position before allowing the game to continue or really to worry about how much of which feet are in, out or on the foul line?

My point is understand the rule and why it is there. I have studied the rules and researched the origin of many of them including this one. To be honest with you there are more reasons having to do with fairness to strictly enforce the coaches in the batters box rule than there are for this one. Personally I will not be worrying or slowing my games down to take care of either one unless it is creating a problem in the game. You of course should do what you feel is best for controlling and creating pace of play in your games. Our job as umpires is to maintain fairness, promote pace, and manage situations.

Dan, I'm sorry I jumped into this thing. I really thought that Mitch was referring to high school rules. Following your instruction, I am not going to worry about where the 1st or 3rd baseman is standing. What ever happens, happens. If the pitcher is on the rubber, and f3 is standing in foul territory and they pick off the runner, he's out. All hell will break loose, and I am to tell the coach that I,m not concerned about where he's standing, I'm not watching for that,( even though I noticed it). He gets his book and reads the rule, then protest,s a rules violation, I look like a dummy, but instead tell him to tell his coaches to stay in there box. Is this a rule that a coach can protest?  Now everyone is pissed at me at I need assistance to get to my car! Okay, I know I'm blowing this up, but do you see where I'm going? I want to try to learn and understand as many if not all the rules that I can, so I don't look as though I don't know what I'm doing out there. I want to have an answer to a coaches question. And I want to stick to the point. That's not fair of you to say to me that I don't have a problem with not enforcing the coaches box rule, you used it as a reference, and I was just saying that I don't want to get into a pissing contest with a coach. I want to be respected out there as an umpire who is approachable, knows the rules, and is understanding in his enforcement of the rules. My reputation and integrity is very important to me. I worked with guys that are unapproachable and really create a tense atmosphere during a game, I've had coaches come to me for help with a partners attitude because they know that I will do all can to make the game fair and fun at the same time. So, going back, if the pitcher picks off the runner and I see that the fielder is standing in foul territory, I will not call the runner out, I will reset and warn the fielder and coach to have both feet in fair territory (pro rules) and call a balk if its high school. Defensive umpiring. If the coach on one side is chirping at me about the opposing coach not being in his box, I will then tell both coaches, both teams, stay in there boxes, and move on.

The high school rule stipulates that the fielder must be in fair territory "at the time of the pitch." If the pitcher throws to first, they have not pitched. Throwing to a first baseman who has both feet firmly planted foul territory would not violate this rule.

During an actual pitch, your attention is going to be on the pitcher and the ball. Unless a fielder is standing near the dugout jumping up and down waving his arms wildly, you're not going to have the opportunity to notice where they're located.

Mike

First I am glad you posted you made good comments. The point of this forum is to allow discussion of the subject. My opinions do not make me correct, I am just attempting to represent one point of view. I in no way feel that if you are enforcing this or other rules that you are doing something wrong. You should just realize where to best spend your time to create the best experience possible.

You are concerned with getting into a pissing match with the coaches. This is good!!! Why create a battle when there does not need to be one. That is why both the coaches box and the first baseman being in fair to me are not really rules to push. I agree you should be attempting to build a reputation as fair and consistent in your rulings. Being approachable is important and that should be the first goal.

Now my point was about sticking it to the coach, which should be done only when he is not being reasonable. This was a one umpire game that Mitch was talking about. The same type of game that many of our new umpires face in HS baseball. They have too many things to watch that are more important than coaches boxes and first baseman starting position. If the coach is harping on something that is unreasonable and will not stop. I will stop him by enforcing the rules totally. Because then he will never do that to another umpire again. Once he discovers it is not worth the hassle to complaint about BS he will stop. I guess if not handled well this could be considered as not being approachable. But I will tell you most of the time this has worked for me without having to do anything more than explaining to the coach that if you are going to mess with me and attempt to make me enforce that, I will have to enforce the other rules also. They have always said "Oh, Ok forget it then". There is no advantage to having a first baseman positioned in foul territory. So him bitching about it is BS.

So Mike I like and agree with all of your posts. While offering another point of view. Please keep posting and discussing the subject. No need to be sorry about it. You bring up excellent points that deserve consideration. Keep up the good work.

Dan Blower

Mike

I forgot to address the protest or looking like a dummy. Fielder are allowed to move into foul territory to make a play. So there is no rule violation for a first baseman or third baseman taking a pick throw in foul territory. There has been no violation. The rule only covers the guidelines for putting the ball into play and for during the delivery of a pitch. The rule does not keep them from foul ground under any other circumstance. So in the scenario you put out there is no protest or violation. In fact if you did not see the violation there can be no protest over you not seeing it. Protests can only be brought for the improper application of a rule. Not for no seeing a violation because you had higher priorities. Remember your order of priorities in guiding you to what to look at.

You must first call
1. Ball or strike.
2. Fair or Foul
3. Catch or no Catch
4. Plays or impending plays.
5. Base touches and tagups
6. Play related rules violations
7. non play related rules violations.

So coaches box and position of players are way down the list. See as much as possible Call what should be called and have a great game.

Dan

I posted a message yesterday but didn't get on for some reason.  I appreciate the input Mike.  There is no reason to appologize.  Your experience is valueable to all of us, especially me.  I have learned more than I expected.  The umpire group we have is great because I can go to  a bunch of umpires and I get great advise.  This was the first time I posted anything on sacumpire.  It wont be the last.  I still follow the advise of my fellow umpires and try to share what ever my experience maybe to with others to learn and become umpires like my " Senseis "  (teachers or Masters)

Good morning gentlemen. Last night in a junior little league game the field umpire called a balk on my 3rd baseman and awarded the runner homeplate. Not ever hearing of this being a balk rule I called for time and went to the filed umpire to clarify the rule. He explained that the fielder was deceiving the runner by having one foot out in foul territory. My reply was that the pitcher never even delivered a pitch. He had merely come to his set position. What i can gather from your previous comments is that this is not a balk and that the runner should not have scored. Is this correct? I also suggested that such an obscure rule should not be called on a 14 yr. old ball player. He informed me that he got in trouble for not calling this rule in a previous game. I researched the pub 1.16 were the umpires advise not to call this rule unless it is brought up by a coach or player on the field and that further more the penalty is ejection and not to advance the runners.
Doug

Doug,

I'm have the same problem with the coaches this year also.  It hasn't come up ever to my recollection in my baseball experience..  The rules and solutions were cleared up by the umpires that shared in the previous comments.  I had to tell the coach, League admisitrator (President, vice President, coaches)  that the penalty is not a balk in this particular ruling.  .That I was okay with one in one out at time of pitch.   The next time I had the same team the president of the league was the head coach and insisted to change the playing rule to both feet in at time of pitch so everyone agreed I went along because this discussion went on at the plate conference.  the Vice President was asked to come in and make a ruling.  He was right on with the rules and the president was not.    I went along with it to get the game started.  this went on for over 10 minutes at the plate.  I called at least three balks that game and the kids parents, and umpires  coaches where. not having fun.   Sad part was we had four batters hit by pitch,  two injured by sliding.  and three or four kids consoled after they started crying.  My partner and agreed that this was the worst game ever. No I was not in a Big Game situation.  It was a 9-10 Pony game.   The coaching and player inexperience is out of my control.   All I can do is call the plays the best I can do at the time I see them, and use all the tools I have from my Experience.  I thank the umpires that explained the rules for this incidents and I think I can rule on it properly with confidents.  When other factors are thrown in it is out of my control.  I thanked my partner for her composure on the field and the experience she brought to the game.  She also had the rules right on,  She is also an NCOA umpire and did a great job.

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