Did I make the right call?

Gerald

I am not sure from your description what really happened. What Inning was this? How many outs were there? Were one of these runs the winning run? Was there ever an appeal on the runner missing home?

First this is little league so we are governed by those rules.

Also I assume this was an infield grounder that was missed by a fielder and the ball when to the outfield. ??

The runner from third went home on the hit and missed home plate.

Then the runner from second crossed the home plate.

The ball arrived in the area at this time and was dropped by the catcher so no tags were made

After this the runner from third after prompting by his coach returned and touched home plate.

Here is the issue I see here.. Once a trailing runner has crossed the plate the preceding runner may not return to retouch the base.

See rule 7.10 b approved ruling

APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead no runner may return to touch a missed base or one abandoned after said runner has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

So for the purposes of this rule your R1(runner from third) could not legally retouch home after your r2(runner from second) had touched home. Now if they defense made a legal appeal of R1 (runner from third) for missing home he should be called out.

Now if there were two outs and R1 is called out for missing home R2's score would be erased.

See rule 4.03 a exception (3)

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before touching first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because that runner failed to touch one of the bases (appeal play).

So here is my evaluation from what I can tell. R1 was liable to be put out in the scenario I describe. If they were making an attempt to tag him or home plate in a manner that it was obvious that they were attempting to get him before he retouched no verbal appeal was needed. As long at the made a legal tab or him or home plate he should have been called out. If this was the third out then no runs should score since he was the first runner across the plate. If there were less than two outs then R2 would score and game would continue.

From your description I do not know if what I am assuming is correct or not. Please clarify your situation more if you this is not correct.

Thanks

Dan

Ok I had 2 outs in top of 6. The ball actually gets hit to F6, ground ball that he miss plays, and the ball rolls just a few feet away. Offense has R1 on 3rd, and R2 at 2nd. R1 comes in to score, but misses home plate then R2 breaks around towards home. R1 realizes he missed home so dives to touch it just before R2 comes into score. I awarded R1 a run as he has the right to touch the plate, although he did so right before a play were being made on R2. Coach is yelling for interference. Now the play being made on R2 in my judgement ended up not even being a play, as it was a wild throw to F2. He was pissed because I did not make a call on R1. I explained I did not rule safe, because he was not safe until he came back to touch home,and that the catcher tagged him or touched home on an appeal,and no runs score. I discussed the play with my partner as far as interference made by R1, being to close to the play as of R2 attempting to score. We both agreed that there were no interference. I guess my big question is once a runner misses a bag or plate would you give a safe signal, or as I did no signal.

Gerald

You do not normally make a save call on a player when they achieve a base without a play. There is nothing to call. When a player misses a base it is not our job to point it out or do anything. The umpire would for the purposes of rules note that the player missed the bag, them continue to umpire the game as if he had touched the bag. This is because for the purposes of the rules, they player is assumed to have touched the bag (even though he did not) until the defense make a proper appeal on the missed base.

It sounds as though the coach wanted you to do something that was not part of your responsibilities. In these situations, (emotional play or situation) coaches will many times vent. This is part of the game and should not be taken personally unless they make it personal. A good coach should come out and challenge a game losing situation. In reality is he showing support of his team and looking for help.

The coaches showing of support for his team is ok. As an umpire we are not there to help him out of a situation his team created. So in handling the coach I would listen to him. When he wants you to make a call I would ask him "what call would he have liked you to make?" or "what play are you thinking I should have ruled on?". The runner was not actually save or out, there was no pulled foot, missed tag, or anything else to rule on.

We do not signal save or indicate that the run has scored in baseball. (unless it is a timing play) So with when home plate is missed or stepped on there is not call to make.

So the only thing I see wrong was in your description you stated "I did not rule safe, because he was not safe until he came back to touch home" In reality he is safe as soon as he crosses home plate. He is still liable to be put out if they properly appeal him missing, but he is safe until that happens.

Here is another similar scenario for you.

Batter hits a slow grounder to the shortstop and runs to first. The batter runner arrives at first before the ball but misses the bag, while overrunning first. The proper ruling on this is safe. He for the purposes of the rules is assumed to have touched the base. The defense may appeal that he missed the bag and get an out as long as they do so before he comes back to the base.

Hope this helps your thinking on the issue.

Dan

I would like to add something weird the Federation does.  We have been instructed to give the "safe" mechanic when the runner misses first before the ball arrives.  And again, it is up to the defense to appeal.  Just makes us look silly tho when we give the safe mechanic, then call the runner out on a proper appeal.

Help me  out here...I understood that the proper mechanic on missed bases that require a tag (such as the one Gerald described) we are not
to signal or make a call until the runner legally touches the base, is
tagged out, or a proper appeal is made, but the proper mechanic for missed bases involving force plays if the runner passes the bag before the ball arrives, is to signal "safe", and only call runner out if proper appeal is made.
 

Again, this is a Federation rule that was decribed at the rules meeting in PA.  Of course use whatever mechanic your organization adopts.  But yes, we give a safe signal at first base if the batter-runner beats the throw and still misses the base.  Here's why, runners are assumed to have acquired the base when they go past it.  It is up to the defense to properly appeal.  By giving no signal (which does seem to make sense), you are tipping off the defense to appeal.  But it does make us look like we have know idea what  we are doing.  We give a safe signal, and then upon proper appeal we call the batter out.  Talk about confusing to coaches and fans. 

Brad and Donna

This really applies to all codes. When a play is made on the runner a signal of safe or out should be given. In the described case the batter runner arrives at first before the throw but missed the bag on the way by. He is safe on the play at first because for the purposes of the rules a missed bag is only ruled on when the defense properly appeals. Other wise the player is assumed to have touched the bag for the purposes of enforcing the rules.

So the batter runner (who missed the bag) is assumed to have touched first. We should rule safe the runner beating the play. No like any situation where a runner has missed a bag the defense may appeal by touching the bag or tagging the runner while making an obvious appeal that the runner missed the base. Upon an upheld appeal he would be called out.

In my opinion we should be signaling safe and allowing the defense to appeal like we would with any other missed base situation.

If a missed base occurs without any play being made there is no signal to make. But really the runner has been declared safe by passing the base. By ruling safe on the described play at first we are only declaring that the runner has beat the play.

Dan